David Grusch testified under oath to Congress at a hearing on UAP

I am a former F-18 pilot with over a decade of service in the U.S. Navy, including two deployments in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve.

I have experienced advanced UAP first-hand, and I am here to voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial air crew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me. Today I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action.

As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace - but they are grossly under-reported. These sightings are not rare or isolated - they are routine. Military air crew and commercial pilots - trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification - are frequently witnessing these phenomena. The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges National Security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses - it is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony.

Parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on. The excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden. Since 2021, all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding but fuels speculation and mistrust.

In 2014... two F-18 Super Hornets were split by UAP. The object, described as a dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be 5 to 15 feet in diameter. The mission Commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base. Our Squadron submitted a safety report, but there was no official acknowledgment of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings.

Soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular PreFlight briefs.

Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process. More than 30 witnesses have come forward and almost 5,000 Americans have joined us in the fight for transparency at safeaerospace.org .

Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at forty thousand feet, potentially in low earth orbit, or in the Gray Zone below the Kármán line, making inexplainable Maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits or J-hooks.

Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP Encounters in our airspace and oceans - the most compelling involved observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so.

If everyone could see the sensor and video data I've witnessed our national conversation would change. I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents.

I was an Intelligence Officer for 14 years, both in the U.S. Air Force - both active duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of Major - and most recently from 2021 to 2023 at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) at the GS-15 Civilian Level (which is the military equivalent of a full bird colonel).

I was my agency's co-lead in Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena and trans-medium object analysis, as well as reporting to the UAP Task Force (UAPTF) and eventually once it was established the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO).

I became a Whistleblower through a PPD-19 Urgent Concern Filing in May 2022 with the Intelligence Community Inspector General following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and Intelligence Community individuals that the U.S. Government is operating with secrecy, above congressional oversight, with regards to UAPs.

My testimony is based on information I've been given by individuals with a long-standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country - many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation and classified oral testimony to myself and many of my various colleagues. I have taken every step I can to corroborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP Task Force, and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. This is because of these steps I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you.

I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and transparency, rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I'm asking Congress to hold our government to the standard and thoroughly investigate these claims. But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I have been told them.

In the U.S Air Force, in my National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) reservist capacity, I was a member of the UAP Task Force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the NRO Operations Center on the Director's Briefing Staff which included the coordination of the Presidential Daily Brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the Reserve Intelligence Division Chief Backup.

In 2019 the UAP Task Force Director asked me to identify all Special Access Programs and Controlled Access Programs also known as SAPs and CAPs - we needed to satisfy our Congressionally-mandated mission and we were direct-report at the time to the DepSecDef. At the time, due to my extensive executive-level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities.

I was informed, in the course of my official duties, of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read-ons when I requested it.

I made the decision, based on the data I collected, to report this information to my superior, superiors and multiple Inspectors General - and in effect becoming a Whistleblower.

As you know I've suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency.

I'm retired commander in the United States Navy. In 2004 I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41 - the world famous Black Aces.

We were tasked to Carrier 11 stationed on board the USS Nimitz and had begun a two-month work-up cycle off the coast of California.

On this day we were scheduled for a 2v2 area training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we launched off Nimitz my wingman was joining up we were told that the training was going to be suspended and we're going to proceed with real world tasking. As we proceeded to the West, the Air Controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to and we were unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived.

The Controller told us that these objects had been observed for over two weeks, coming down from over 80,000 feet, rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up. For those who don't realize, above 80,000 feet is Space.

All four of us [in F-18s]... looked down and saw a white Tic-Tac object... moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball. There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings.

It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wing men roughly 8,000 feet above us lost contact also... The Controller came up and said "sir you're not going to believe this but that thing is at your Cap Point" - roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute. [60 miles/minute = 3600 miles/hour ~= 5800 km/hour]

What you don't see is the radar tape that was never released - and we don't know where it's at - the active jamming that the object put on...

... the Tic-Tac object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time, have today or are looking to develop in the next 10 years - if we in fact have programs that possess this technology

You received prior approval from the Defense Department to speak on certain issues correct?

Correct through DOPSR (DOD Prepublication and Security Review) - and I just want to remind the public, they're just looking from a security perspective - these are my own personal views and opinions, not the Department's.

Okay I'm asking that mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you - so it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony.

I'm required by law to do that as a former Intelligence Officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information.

Mr Grusch, you've been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you're not able uh to respond to can you just explain where you're drawing the line - what's the basis for that?

Yeah, based on my DOPSR security review and what they've determined that is unclassified.

I see so you're answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of an unclassified questions but anything that relates to classified matters you're not commenting on in this context?

In an open session, but happy to participate in a closed session at the right level, yeah.

Commander Fravor, can you briefly describe your background?

Yeah I was a enlisted Marine. Naval Academy graduate. Navy. Flew for 18 years. Got a master's from University of Houston and I've worked in the private sector for the last what now 19, 16 or 17 years - I do a lot of Defense work.

So really gold-plated credentials.

Why did you come forward on this issue?

I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to mitigate the safety threat and I wanted to help them I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the Navy and this seemed it just, it just felt right. I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this.

Purely a sense of Duty. I first sworn oath when I was a cadet 18 years ago and I still uphold that even out of the uniform.

I was pestered by a friend and I asked why and he said you're the one person that they can't discredit and you'll add credibility to the New York Times article and so after about six times I said okay.

Do you believe UAPs pose a threat to national security?

Yes and here's why. The technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had, and you could put that anywhere. If you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work - you're talking something that can go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants and leave - and there's nothing we can do about it - nothing.

I would also like to add from commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of our professional actions - identifying friend from foe is very important to us. And so when we have unidentified targets and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or fear of what it could be that's an opening that our adversaries can take advantage.

Based off of your own experience, or the data that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs could be essentially collecting reconnaissance information?

Yes.

Fair assessment yeah.

Very possible.

Is it possible that these UAPs would be probing our capabilities?

Yes.

Yes.

Definitely.

Is it possible that these UAPs are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems?

Yes.

Yes.

Possible.

Do you feel, based off of your experience and the information that you've been privy to, that these UAPs provide an existential threat to the National Security of the United States?

Potentially.

Same answer - potentially.

I'd say definitely potentially

In the event that your encounters have become hostile, would you have would have would you have had the capability to defend yourself your crew your aircraft?

Absolutely not.

No.

Based off of the information that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities?

Yes.

By external observation, sure that could be a fair assessment yeah.

Yes.

Is there any indication that department of energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing?

I don't have an answer.

I can't confirm or deny that in a public setting.

No I don't know.

There clearly is a threat to the National Security of the United States of America.

Mr Grusch, in your complaint to the Intelligence Community Inspector General you claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden?

... both material acquisition and exploitation activity. Also baselining the UAPs but not sharing it with you know intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs to pilots - that that kind of information.

Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority?

There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain Gang of Eight members or etc, but uh certainly I would not be surprised.

Do you believe that our government is in possession of UAPs?

Absolutely based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over four years.

And where?

I know the exact locations and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees - I actually had the people with the first-hand knowledge provide a protected disclosure to the Inspector General.

You have both described UAPs and formations... observed in space or air... and the way they move... ways in which current technology or aircraft are not able to function... once again... for the public record... briefly describe?

Yes, the objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are unexplainable due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country and that applies for the military as well.

Yeah I concur with that. We have nothing that can stop in midair and go the other direction, nor do we have anything that can - like in our situation - come down from space, hang out for three hours and go back up.

How do you know these were not our aircraft?

Some of the behaviors that we saw in our working air - we would see these objects being at 0.0 Mach - that's zero airspeed over certain pieces of the ground - so what that means, just like a river if you throw a bobber in it's going to float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary in Category 4 hurricane winds. These same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds 1.1 / 1.2 Mach and they would do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we don't I don't have an explanation for.

What astonished you the most about the the flight capabilities of these Tic-Tac?

Uh, the performance - absolute performance.

You're not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world that has those capabilities?

No I think it's far beyond actually our Material Science that we currently possess.

What is your general interpretation of these phenomena - what is your current thinking, trying to make sense of them?

...what we saw, with four sets of eyes, over a five minute period, still, there's nothing - we have nothing close to it.

It was it was amazing to see - I told my buddy I wanted to fly it - but yeah it's just an incredible technology.

When those objects broke the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom?

I was in a jet you can't hear anything it's kind of loud in there.

Yeah you're not able to actually personally tell within the vehicle. I will say the objects that we were seeing they were spherical - and they were observed up to Mach 2 - which is a very in non-aerodynamic shape.

Let's talk about G-Forces of those Vehicles. Could a human survive those G-Forces with known technology today?

No.

No, not for the acceleration rates that we observed.

What about what they look like. How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section - and what I mean is obviously the jets you're flying have all those things - did these objects have those?

So we got within a half mile of the Tic-Tac - which people say that's pretty far - but it's in airplanes that's actually relatively close. No, it was perfectly white, smooth, no windows - although when we did take the original FLIR video that is out there when you put it on a big screen it actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of it, but other than that no, no windows, no seams, no nothing.

Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base, indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention. I sought a briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman Burchett and Congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor and to observe any radar signature as well as to meet with the flight crew. We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially we were not afforded access to images and to radar. Thereafter we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America and we did see the image and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image.

The image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability either from the United States or from any of our adversaries - and I'm somewhat informed on the matter - having served on the Armed Services Committee for seven years, having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and Advanced Technologies for several years.

When we spoke with the flight crew and when he showed us the photo that he'd taken, I asked why the video wasn't engaged - why we didn't have a FLIR system that worked? Here's what he said: they were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico and when you're on a test mission you're supposed to have clear air space - not supposed to be anything that shows up and they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation (for which there is a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress). One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating, what I can only describe as an orb (again like I said, not of any human capability that I'm aware of) and when he approached he said that his radar went down. He said that his FLIR system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses and it was not automated in collection as you would typically see in a test mission.

How should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot, uh had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft?

Well I think this goes to that National Security side - and you can go back through history of things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities - which is disheartening. And for us, I mean like I said it, it completely disabled the radar in the aircraft when I tried to do it, the only way we could see it is passively - which is how he got that image - so I think that's a that's a concern on what are these doing not only how do they operate but their capabilities inside to do things like this.

Have we ever seen multiple craft in a single formation?

I have one particular case and that was uh during the Gimbal incident. The recording on the FLIR system shows a single object that rotates. You hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not visible on the FLIR system and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page.

We have all seen the floating Tic-Tac video uh that you engage with on November 14 2004. Can you briefly talk about why you were off the coast of San Diego that day?

Yeah we were at a workup with all the battle groups - so we integrate the ships with the carrier, the airwing with the carrier - and we start working so we're doing an air defense to hone not only our skills but those are the USS Princeton - when they had been tracking them for two weeks. The problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them and this was the first day and unfortunately we were the ones that were born and went and saw it.

Do you remember the weather that day - was it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the Pacific Coast?

It was actually, if, if you're familiar with San Diego, it was a perfect day - light winds, no White Caps, clear skies not a cloud it was, for flying it was the best.

Now is it true that you saw in your words a 40-foot flying Tick-Tock shaped object?

That's correct - or for some people that can't know what a Tic-Tac is, it's a giant flying propane tank.

Did this object come up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton?

The Princeton tracted it, the Nimitz tracted it, the E2 tracked it. We never saw it on our radars. Our Fire Control radars never picked it up. The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar - as soon as it tried to lock it, it jammed the radar - spit the lock and he rapidly switched over to the targeting pod which you can do in the uh in the F-18.

From what you saw that day and what you've seen on video did you see any source of propulsion from the flying object including on any potential thermal scans from your aircraft?

No, there's none. There's no IR plume coming out and Chad, who took the video, went through all the EO (which is black and white TV) and the IR modes and there's no visual signs of a propulsion - it's just sitting in space at twenty thousand feet.

In your career, have you ever seen a propulsion system that creates no thermal exhaust?

No.

Can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered?

Uh abruptly, uh very determinate. It knew exactly what it was doing. It was aware of our presence and it had acceleration rates - I mean it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all.

Now if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable of doing that?

No, not even close.

And just to confirm, this object had no wings correct?

No wings.

Now, was the aircraft that you were flying, was it armed?

No never felt threatened, at all.

If the aircraft was armed, do you believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United States could have shot the Tic-Tac down?

I'd say no just on the performance - it would have just left - in a split second.

It looks like we have a problem here that needs further investigation.

Yes.

In your belief is this flying Tic-Tac, I mean is this, is it capable of being the product of any other nation on the Earth?

No I actually, I said, like I said earlier, I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion, and I know there's been some physicists of them calculations which is beyond anything that we have.

Well either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don't know or we really have some serious investigations to do.

Is there anything else about the November 14 2004 incident that you think is important for this committee to know that you haven't been asked here today?

No, I, I, you know, it's, it's been said it's probably the most credible UFO sighting in history - based on all the sensors that were tracking it - and then for us to get visual, and to go against the naysayers, it's something on the screen or whatever, I mean there's four sets of human eyeballs - we're all very credible. Of the six of us that were involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is going to do 20 plus years in the military in very responsible positions so I'd say the world needs to know that. This, it's not a joke.

As an expert Naval aviator, have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the Tic-Tac UAP?

No.

Did the Tic-Tac UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics?

The way we understand them, yes.

Many dismiss UAP reports as classified weapons testing by our own government, but in your experience as a pilot, does our government typically test advanced weapon systems right next to multi-million dollar jets without informing our pilots?

No, we have test ranges for that.

Can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base?

In the 2003 time frame, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large, 100 yard-sided red square, uh approached the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains.

There was a similar event within 24 hours, later in the evening - this was a morning event, I believe 8:45 in the morning. Later in the evening, post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors. These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off. And this is information that was received through one of the witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace.

Was this documented in any official form - whether it was a police blotter?

Yes, they had official documentation and records from the event that the witness held over the years.

Have you seen that before on any other equipment and or during your flight time?

I have not seen what they have described. This object was estimated to be almost the size of a football field and I have not seen anything personally that large.

Referencing the Gimbal Video Go-Fast incident, can you just clarify - because to our understanding the footage was actually cut off at a certain point - but what happens at the end of that video - just for those Americans specifically there that are wanting to know about the rest of that footage?

Much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that would provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby.

Are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is?

We were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere... where the Apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere. And that was primarily what was being reported - when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects - and that occurred over almost eight years and as far as I know it's still occurring.

What is the most vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye, of the objects that you described before the cube-like objects?

Certainly, I think the most uh vivid sighting of that would have been near a near mid-air that we had at the entrance to our working area. One of these objects was completely stationary at the exact entrance to our working areas - not only geographically but also at altitude. So it was right where all the Jets are going essentially on the Eastern Seaboard. The two aircraft flew within about 50 feet of the object and that was a very close visual sighting.

And you were in one of the aircraft?

I was not - I was there when the pilot landed. He canceled the mission after, and I was there. He was in the ready room with all his gear on with his mouth open, and I asked him what the problem was and he said he almost hit one of those darn things.

He said he was 50 feet away from it?

Yes sir.

And his description of the object was consistent with the description you gave us before?

A dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere.

Inside of a clear sphere?

Yes.

And with no self-evident propulsion system?

No wings, no IR energy coming off of the vehicle, um nothing tethering it to the ground - and that was that was primarily what we're experiencing out there.

Has the U.S. Government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial or otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence and if so when do you think this first occurred?

I like to use the term non-human - I don't like to denote origin - it keeps the aperture open both scientifically. Certainly like I've discussed publicly, uh previously 1930s.

Why is it that you referred to the phenomenon as non-human intelligence - why deviate from the basis of extraterrestrial life?

I think the phenomenon is uh very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin.

When you say specific origin are you referring, can you elaborate on that?

If it's a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don't quite understand - uh from either biological or astrophysics perspective - yeah I just like the keep an open mind on what it could be, yeah.

You've stated that the government is in possession of potentially non-human spacecraft. Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials?

That's something I can't discuss in public setting

If you believe we have crashed craft uh stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft?

As I've stated publicly already in my NewsNation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries, yeah.

Were they human or non-human biologics?

Non-human - and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.

And was this documentary references, video, photos, eyewitness - like how would that be determined?

The specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a SCIF about.

Do you have any personal knowledge of someone who's possibly been injured working on legacy UAP reverse engineering?

Yes.

How are they injured was it, is it something like a radioactive type situation or something we didn't understand? I've heard people talk about Havana Syndrome type incidences - what was your recollection of that?

I can't get into the specifics, but you could imagine assessing an unknown-unknown - uh there's a lot of potentialities you can't fully prepare for.

Can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct first-hand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval - some of these crash retrieval programs - and maybe which facilities military bases that would the recovered material would be in?

Uh, I can't discuss that publicly - but I did provide that information both to the Intel committees and the Inspector General.

What Special Access Programs cover this information and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long?

I do know the names - once again I can't discuss that publicly and how they've evaded oversight. In a closed setting, I can tell you the specific trade-craft used.

When do you think those programs began and who authorized them?

I do know a lot of that information but that's something I can't discuss publicly.

What level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs? And I say that because myself, Representative Gaetz and Representative Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglin.

Certainly a difference between member access and say somebody like me, but anybody who has, you know, TS/SCI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria, the Access Adjudicative Authority should be able to grant you access.

So just to be put a fine point on that, there's nothing that you're aware of that's above Special Access Program classification?

It's a misnomer that there's anything actually above Top Secret. Executive Order 13-5-26 delineates the classification levels.

Right, but I draw a point on that because we can have access to those programs and so the notion that we're not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress.

Title 10 and Title 50 authorization - they seem to say they're inefficient. So who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past?

It's a group of career senior executive officials... both in and outs of government.

Which private corporations are directly involved in this program?

I did provide uh to the Committees and specific divisions and uh I spent eleven and a half hours at both Intel committees.

Are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non-terrestrial craft?

Personally, yes.

Do you know anything to be willing to testify if there were protections for them?

Certainly closed door and assurances uh that breaking their NDA they're not going to get administratively punished for.

As a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself, of non-human origin craft?

Yes, I personally interviewed those individuals.

As a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself, about AT's (Advanced Technologies) that the US government has?

Based on conventional Advanced Tech, I was briefed to the preponderance of the Defense Department's both Space and Aerospace compartment of programs, yeah.

Do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the Advanced Tech space that are unsanctioned?

Yes I do.

And when you say that they're above Congressional oversight what do you mean?

So there's, you know, some I would call it 'abuse' here. So Congressional Oversight of conventional Special Access Programs - and I'll use Title 10, so DOD as an example right, so 10 U.S Code Section 119 discusses Congressional Oversight of SAPs, discusses the DepSecDef's ability to waive Congressional reporting - however the Gang of Eight is at least supposed to be notified if, you know, waived or wave bigoted unacknowledged SAP is created, and that's Public Law.

How does a program like that get funded?

I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a closed session uh but uh misappropriation of funds.

Does that mean does that mean that there is money in the budget that is said to go to a program but it doesn't and it goes to something else?

Yes I have specific knowledge of that, yep.

Do you think U.S. corporations are over-charging for certain tech they're selling to the US government - and that additional money is going to programs?

Correct, through something called IRAD.

We have satellites all over the place - some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of, right. We're taking pictures of everything at every point in second. Mr Grusch, are you aware, do you have direct knowledge or have you talked to people direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events?

That was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we uh process, exploit and disseminate that kind of information. I've seen multiple cases some of which to my understanding - and of course I left NG in April so that's my information cut off date - but I personally um reviewed both what we call Overhead Collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were, I could not even explain prosaically - and I have a degree in physics by the way as well - and I'm aware that you guys have not seen these um reports unfortunately, and I don't know why.

Do you have direct knowledge or have spoken to people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites - crash, crash imagery?

I can't discuss that in an open session.

Do you have any information that the U.S. Government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain UAPs?

I can't go beyond what I've already stated publicly in my NewsNation interview - because it touches other sensitivities.

[1:42:18] If you reference my NewsNation interview and I talk about a multi-decade, you know, campaign to um disenfranchise public interest basically.

You've said that U.S and has intact spacecraft you said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen the spacecraft?

I have to be careful to describe what I've seen firsthand and not in this environment - but I could answer that question behind behind closed doors here.

And have you seen any of the bodies?

That's something I've not witnessed myself.

Do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for UAPs interferes with the federal government's ability to be transparent with the American people, and do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people?

I'm familiar with the, at least the UAP Task Force 2019 Security Classification Guide. I think it's fair - um I did actually help uh author that.

I will say about declassifying videos, I mean I've seen some of the videos of, you know, the recent shoot down and I saw no reason that couldn't have been released - as long as they mask you know some data - the American people deserve to see that imagery and full motion video.

In my opinion, I will say, things are over classified.

I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the 2020 report that had the stuff off the east coast - they were taken with an iPhone off the east coast - a buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he said they're originally classified a TS/SCI - and my question to him was: what's TS/SCI about these? They're an iPhone literally off the VACAPES - that's not TS/SCI - so they're over classified and as soon as they do that they go in a vault and then you all have to look for them.

It took over 15 years for your encounter with the Tic-Tac to be declassified - do you feel there was a good reason to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage?

No I just think it was ignored when it happened and it just sat somewhere in a file - never got reported.

Have you faced any retaliation or reprisals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines?

Yeah uh, I have to be careful what I say in detail - because there is an open uh whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf and I don't want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may uh, help provide somebody information. But it was very brutal and very unfortunate some of the tactics they used to hurt me both professionally and and personally to be quite Frank, yeah.

Do you have any personal knowledge of people who've been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology?

Yes. Personally.

Anyone been murdered that you know of or have heard of?

I have to be careful ?asking? that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities.

I do have knowledge of um, active planned uh reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues... coming from where uh certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that's all I'll say publicly...

There were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked and it actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last three years.

I call it 'administrative terrorism' - that's their their quiver, their tool in the toolbox, to silence people - especially you know, career government service, cares about their career, cares about their clearance, uh their reputation, to climb the ladder, and when you threaten that uh flow career path, a lot of people back off - but I'm here to represent those people.

Have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues?

Yes, personally, yeah.

I just want everyone to note that he's coming forward, in fear of his life, to put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out - why would someone be intimidated like that?

With the FAA, to your understanding, pilots that are seeing this - commercial airline pilots - are they receiving cease and desist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to safety for potential airline passengers?

I have been made privy to conversations with commercial aviators who have received cease and desist orders.

So the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations, on not the line, but ahead of the safety of the American people and I think would you agree with that statement?

It appears so.

You mentioned white-collar crimes potentially being um taking place in regards to a cover-up can you please elaborate?

I have concerns, based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties, of potential violations of the federal acquisition regulations - the FAR.

On the 19th of April, Dr Kirkpatrick, head of AARO, had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. You also stated that you had, in your interview, that you had briefed him on information that you are uncovering, but that he did not follow up with you. Were the items that you divulged to him pertinent to National Security?

Yes, him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over AARO in July 2022 and I provided him some concerns I had.

Do you know why he might not have fallen up with you?

Unfortunately I cannot read his mind - I wish he did. I was happy to give sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the the helm of AARO.

Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr Grusch in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that give us the information we need.

Second I would suggest that the radar images from that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force Base - and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate - be provided to the committee subpoenaed if necessary so that we're able to track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a more fulsome way - that would be my recommendation humbly as a guest here of the fine Oversight Committee.

Who in the government - either what agency, sub-agency, what contractors - who should be called into the next hearing about UAPs, either in a public setting or even in a private setting? And you probably can't name names but what agencies or organizations, contractors, etc do we need to call in to get these questions answered - whether it's about funding, what programs are happening and what's out there?

I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals that were in those.

And how soon can we get that list?

I'm happy to provide that to you after the hearing.

I would encourage the Chairman to demand that we have any and all - but in particular Mr Grusch - talk to us in a SCIF, and if that access is denied, I will personally volunteer to initiate The Holman Rule against any personnel or any program or any agency that denies access to Congress.